BCPL: Coquitlam Metro Ford info up

CMF have posted their info and they are the first club to show they ‘get it’ so far by posting pretty much everything that parents and players need to know at this stage: tryout dates, tryout reg info, coaches, price, price breakdown, payment schedule.

Other clubs should use this as a template. The only thing that’s really missing are short bios for the coaches. (They are there; missed them. Thanks to Peter E for pointing this out)

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53 Responses to BCPL: Coquitlam Metro Ford info up

  1. PE says:

    bios are there. Just have to click link to them. 😉

  2. Coachrich says:

    Great to see all that info up at CMFSC. Also their reg fee “Registration Cost Total $2400.00”

  3. Sir Alex says:

    Hmm, is it just me or is it the same thing but now with a hefty price tag?

    BCSA what have you done?

    On the girls side the coaches names are all the same as this season but now as parents we’re going to dive deep into our wallets to pay for volunteer dad coaches! It looks like these coaches will stay with their daughters and their little groups through their youth soccer experience. If you want your daughter to get a different voice, and a different coaching technique, don’t look to CMF because it’s the same old, same old. If your daughter is U13, she’ll likely have the same coach for 6 years. I’d like to know which clubs are going to keep their coaches at one age group year after year so there is a different voice instructing year after year.

    Where is the change? Where is the revolutionary advance in coaching, structure, accountability, and anything that would make me buy into this enormous upheaval? It’s not here.

    BCPL is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist on the girls side of the equation.

    Keep digging deeper people and make your own decisions. The BCPL title is looking increasingly weak and MSL seems to give flexibility, and potentially top notch coaching at a fraction of the price. The emperor has no clothes!

    • Canadian Spur says:

      Sir Alex,

      While I don’t know this for an absolute fact, I think only one or two of the CMF girls coaches is a “parent coach” (possibly 2 on the boys side). Dennis Kindel, Alfredo Valente and Gord Chin do not have daughters eligible for thier teams and none of these 3 are coaching current Metro teams with CMF. I don’t beleive these three can be described as “volunteer dad coaches” (Although I think Alfredo has a very young child so I suppose he is technically a dad).

      Four of the five boys coaches are returning Select (or U13 Gold) coaches with only Carlo Corrazon being new.

      • Sir Alex says:

        I stand corrected.

        U15 and U16 girls coaches are repeating from this current season where they coached U14 and U15 respectively.

        Both with B-Prep certification and with daughters on their teams.

      • Stuck in Bridge Traffic says:

        A comment I’ve heard from a number of parents is that, at the highest level, they’d prefer their daughters to NOT be on a team where the coach has a child playing.

        Between Surrey United and South Fraser I can see 3 teams for the coming BCPL season where the coach currently has a daughter on his/her team in Metro – currently two U15 teams and one U16 team. They all are well qualified coaches.

        Two of these coaches’ current teams are near the bottom of the standings and both were very close to the bottom of the standings the year previous; of the three there is only one where the daughter is a truly outstanding player around which the team is built. Two of these coaches will be changing clubs to coach BCPL.

        Other than the new club and one extra evening of field time and expense, what is going to change with these teams next year that will justify $2500 vs the $500 we paid this past year?
        .

    • MJ says:

      One advantage of the current system is that players have the option of academy training, spring league and school teams that result in different coaches and player mixes. BCPL is a long season at 4X per week and it will be a challenge for coaches and players to keep it fresh.

    • Soccertown says:

      $2400 for a Parent coach with just a B-prep qualification? That’s insane!

    • Roberto Pinate says:

      Roberto Spain,

      How can you have the best players playing against the best when you set up a $2,400 filter?
      How many excellent players/families will not participate because they can not afford it?
      The whole point of this HPL and Metro league are to elevate the skill and competition level of youth soccer.
      But what you have here is the best of the few that can afford to pay for it.
      So it is a minority of players, not necessary the best ones.
      This seems to be a good business idea, not a good soccer development initiative.

  4. Colin Elmes says:

    Good for CMF for getting the info out in its entirety. Probably been listening to all the chatter on sites like this.

  5. fifa 2015 says:

    Gregor

    As a parent I am so thankful for your blog as it has been an excellent resource and allowed parents to rightfully questions this HPL process
    I have a number of valid concerns and question how this process has enfolded
    1) If there was a consensus to “overhaul” the entire select soccer system, then this entire process was flawed from the start
    2) What should have occurred was a “one time” objective third party (hire a consultant) or 3rd party committee to carefully investigate or research how and why the current system has failed. This should include accountability of BC Soccer, their provincial team program, accountability of the Provincial Team Coaching program, Licensing program, post mortum of the Super Y League programs and their failure, feedback on the current club select programming, and district governance, and above all feedback from your volunteer coaches, players and most of all your “consumer” the parents.
    3) This closed process irrespective of the good intentions of the committees, has now exposed many of the current wrongs in youth soccer and hurriedly put together a system which is deemed to fail.
    4) From all of the feedback, survey’s and focus groups, there had to be acknowledgement from all parties (bc soccer, super y, clubs, and districts) they have not provided your consumer the quality of programming and satisfaction which should occur.
    5) Without any feedback process from provincial/ntc players, super y league players, and metro/select players/parents, the committee members are basically absolving any accountability of various stakeholders who hold the keys to the game, and only “re packaging a dysfunctional product.”
    6) It is common knowledge our teams at club and provincial team nationals are not getting the results expected. Specifically the provincial programming is not at the levels since alan churchard was at the helm and 36 players were chosen for each group which created immediate competition for selection to the first team.
    7) With the announcement of the HPL franchises and recent coaches selections it is obvious the system has not improved as many of the coaches have never developed provincial/national team players. Further in other sports volunteer coaches are appreciated at the same level as professionals, as they exhibit the passion and experience.
    8) What we have basically created is a new system of providing income and entitlement to various organizations without 3rd party accountability. Provincial players such as my daughter are now scrambling to learn or research which tryout to attend as they is the threat of being removed from NTC or provincial team selection.
    9) I personally think the basic metro/select system just required fine tuning, which should have just allowed 6 teams in metro a and 6 teams in metro b. At the half way point of the season, their is a relagation system based on results and also at the end of the year. This would create accountability within the system between clubs and not everyone would be entitled to a metro position, and every weekend would be competitive
    10) This entire hpl reminds me of when the whitecaps marketed the Super Y league a few years ago with great fanfare, and now just look at how watered down it is. Charging $2500-$4000 with quality assurance is already turning away many talented players.
    11) Thru out this entire “top down” process has missed the boat badly, as it has removed any genuine feedback from your customers as to their apathy with current provincial teams, club and district practices and overall experiences in youth soccer.
    12) Just re branding this hpl with the same people in charge is only furthering hurting our ability to improve youth soccer for the sake of the players. Just ask your average club select player how much did they learn from ntc or their past provincial team. Its all about status without any regard to accountibility. A third party, arms length away was the only way to proceed or the very least include feeback from parents

    • Gregor says:

      re: #2 I think soccer’s governing bodies are wary of third party consultants since they hired KPMG about how to get a new national soccer league off the ground and the report that came back was “forget it, save your money”!

  6. Hank says:

    Fifa2015:
    “What we have basically created is a new system of providing income and entitlement to various organizations without 3rd party accountability.”

    Spot on! Gregor has commented before on accountability and evaluating coaches based on something more than an accent, sweat suit and a certification. HPL feels no different from Selects and now it’s almost twice the price. Same coaches, same number of games – shift the calendar and charge more. I’d like to see an analysis of the actual hourly rate paid coaches based on number of practice hours, game hours, etc. (Hey, someone’s always evaluating me at work. You get paid – you get evaluated.) Something doesn’t smell right here.

  7. Colin Elmes says:

    Keep digging Hank.

    “Follow the money”
    Deep Throat in All the Presidents Men

  8. Rob Reed says:

    Follow the money indeed.

    I have one question about this endless stream of revenue in youth soccer clubs…where was all of the money allocated before these high priced coaches and TD’s arrived on the scene? It sounds like all of the same coaches will be resurfacing in the bcpl and it will be most of the same elite players participating. Will all of the same volunteers be running these franchises with very large budgets? I read recently where a Richmond volunteer was being sentenced for pilfering a lot of money from a club over several years and I hope we would never see something like this again. Let’s hope these franchises keep their books wide open….it would be very interesting to see some of their expenses.

    Shifting gears away from player development, does anyone know what is being done currently to recruit youth referees in BC? Is that something that is done within the clubs because, as a player, I cannot recall being approached by someone about the possibility of a refereeing “career” in the past 25 years. There seems to be a real shortage of quality officials and I believe the biggest reason for this is a severe lack of recruitment.

    • Gregor says:

      Obviously fees increased as the youth game was professionalized which is why you now see such high prices for BCPL. Fees are generally lower at clubs with a higher player to professional coach/TD ratio.

      The Debbie Judd case did force a lot of clubs to change their financial practices to ensure that any chance of financial wrongdoings was reduced. All clubs, as non profit societies have to make their books available to their members (ie. players parents) at AGM’s and most now have required that all cheques have two signatures.

      As for refs, it’s no issue getting young refs in the door. We do entry level ref clinics every year and they fill up. Kids are more than willing to do mini games but far fewer want to make the jump to divisional. This is down to it being more difficult (have to call offside), more pressure (coaches and parents yell at refs much more starting at U11) and the pay is not much more than what some clubs pay for a simple, easy U9 or U10 game.

  9. fifa2015 says:

    Pardon my lack of intellect, but could someone clarify how clubs are awarded metro positions on the boys and girls programs. I think a number of coaches are worried this process will NOT be transparent, and include a fair degree of conflict of interest.
    I am told in south district, metro or select teams are decided at a board meeting voted on by the clubs, many of whom maybe in a conflict here. Are they going to provide HPL franchises first right on Metro teams being awarded and can anyone apply so long as they can demonstrate they are competitive. Some years ago, Mr. Steve Allen as chair of the district began this process of awarding metro/select “franchises” and now if those metro teams with franchises are folding, are they going to maintain the status quo (existing metro clubs retain franchise) or open things up for new applications? Have clubs been given any direction on this to hopefully hire the best coaches, schedule tryouts, get the word out or even know of the new regulations?Because kids on those franchises who fail to hpl or do not wish to participate, what do they do. Where is the information for such on where to tryout for metro/select ?
    It is march and a number of important questions need to be asked and answered. Tryouts are coming up, and there is total confusion out there.
    Does no one understand this?

    Gregor/Colin Elmes could you kindly shed light on this. Or anyone involved with south district or other districts

    • Gregor says:

      Metro/Selects teams, to this point in time, need to be approved by their District. Some Districts (VYSA, Bby for eg) put one District run team in while others act as arbiters of the applications that come from their clubs and select which ones to enter in the league.

      • Dave says:

        Greetings Gregor…with regards to how ridiculous things can be in the Fraser Valley…at the February meeting of the Fraser Valley Youth Soccer Association, Bill Ede, President of Aldergrove FC, put forward a motion, that was subsequently passed by the board, which states ” Any District Club not supporting the FV/Abbotsford bid for an HPL franchise, will not be awarded a Metro/Select team for the upcoming 2011/12 season”. The motion was put forward as a result of Langley United supporting the Surrey United HPL franchise.

  10. Colin Elmes says:

    Sorry, Colin Elmes does not get invited to these types of meetings.

  11. Larry says:

    An Analysis of Head Coach duties in HPL

    Here is a perspective on Head Coach duties (i.e. employment duties) in the HPL. The major difference between HPL and the MSL system is the quality of the coaching process, formalization of reporting, and TD involvement going forward.

    This is NOT an argument on parental vs non-parental coaches, only an analysis of the duties, efforts and time requirements involved.

    Weekly Head Coach Duties

    Training preparation = 3hrs
    Training (on field, 3 sessions) = 4.5hrs
    Game time = 2.5 hrs
    Game analysis & report = 2hrs
    Staff sessions with Technical Director (team, player performance) = 1hr
    Player testing protocol, reports & talent identification = 1 hr
    Travel time (week) = 4 hrs
    ————————————
    Total time per week = 18 hrs

    HPL operating season

    Pre-Season = 5 weeks (3 Spring, 2 Fall)
    League = 29 weeks

    Total time for Head Coach = 34 weeks x 18 hrs = 612 hrs

    The major differences in the HPL system.

    – Training sessions are increased to 3 per week from a typical 2 per week.
    – An HPL Technical Director directing training plans and system of play (tactics for example) for each team.
    – Game analysis and report for all games
    – Player testing protocol and report(s), talent identification for BC PTP & NTC

    A head coach must dedicate 600 hrs of there time to the duty requirements of an HPL Head Coach position. In comparison, a full time employee at a company typically works 1950 hrs per year with 3 weeks of vacation. So you can see immediately that it is quite a challenge for a person with a full time “day job” to be an HPL Head Coach.

    Salary Analysis

    @ $1,800 per player
    Estimated HPL team budget = $32,400
    Approx 40% allocated to Head Coach position (* est based on Sportstown proposal)
    Head Coach Salary/hr = ($32,400 x 40%) / 612 hrs = $21 /hr

    @ $2,500 per player
    Estimated HPL team budget = 45,000
    Approx 40% allocated to Head Coach position (* est based on Sportstown proposal)
    Head Coach Salary/hr = ($45,000 x 40%) / 612 hrs = $29 /hr

    Conclusion

    – Nobody is going to get rich being an HPL coach.
    – If the job is performed as required it will be a lot of work.
    – Formal reporting and analysis will play a much large role than it has in the past.
    – Individuals with other full-time employment will have a very difficult time performing these tasks on a time commitment basis.
    – Under the current volunteer based system, it would be difficult to find the people dedicated to the this level of duty requirement and effort without some level of compensation.
    – In essence, the compensation is more of a stipend or honorarium to recognize the efforts by the coach to perform the duty requirements in the HPL.

    Final Thoughts

    – There will be lower income families who will struggle to afford the cost of HPL. Hopefully there will be financial assistance mechanisms by all HPL Clubs to address this issue and allow kids to play in the HPL if they have the talent.

    • Gregor says:

      That’s actually a very interesting analysis.

      I’ll be curious to see what kind of feedback loops are built into the job descriptions and how much emphasis is given to game and training analysis. BCPL TD’s will have the luxury of working with a relatively small number of teams (compared to someone like me who works at a mid size club with about 90 teams) but will have to be able to handle the tremendous scrutiny that goes with both the level of play and the high price tags attached.

    • Colin Elmes says:

      Interesting Larry,

      I would love to see all of this paperwork when it is completed( a season file for each coach and TD) Maybe I would learn something.

      • Coachrich says:

        Me too as I did it for free as it was fun and great to watch kids grow up to be athletes and role models.

    • Phil Hernandez says:

      “Approx 40% allocated to Head Coach position (* est based on Sportstown proposal)”

      Hmmm. You’ve lost me. Sportstown model: Per team revenue was to be $32,400. Head coach wage was to be $18,000. Allocation = 56%.

      And in any event (speaking of playing with assumptions…), I would say that the assumption that 40% of team fees will be allocated to the head coach is the most suspect assumption of all. I doubt clubs are using a percentage of fees to set the head coach’s wages anyway.

      PH

      • Larry says:

        PH, the 40% estimate is based on the allocation by the Sportstown FC Bid of $180K to the Head Coach(s) on a Club budget of $413K or 43%. Sportstown makes up the gap through sponsorship. You are correct that no club would simply just pay 40% to the head coach as each club will have slightly different operating issues such as field costs, administration or setup costs or websites. Some clubs will pay more some will pay less. However, without other information one can only use what is available (i.e. Sportstown FC bid). When you look at the breakdown, 40% seemed like a likely metric based on the other costs such as equipment, travel, fields, league fees, league officials and administration.

      • Phil Hernandez says:

        However you work it out 40% is, in my estimation, high. (Plus it is not consistent to use $413K and $180K to calculate the allocation and then NOT use 1/10 of the revenue as the estimated team budget. Just sayin…). Maybe is relevant to discuss overall staffing allocations. The point is that there is a danger in all this number crunching and certainly in extrapolating from a single case.

        PH

  12. Hank says:

    Larry. This is awesome – I love it when we get down to some good analysis! Let me play a bit with that first round of assumptions and see what new conclusions pop out:

    1. If we’re comparing this to a job hourly rate then let’s take out the 4 hours per week of Travel Time – no one out here in the business world (at least in my world) gets to charge for commuting.
    2. Are coaches really going to spend 4.5 hours per week preparing. I’ve NEVER seen anything that resembles that level of effort in the “high level” coaches we’ve been exposed to. Assuming we’re using the same coaches as Metro/Selects, let’s get real and reduce that down to 30 minutes prep for each 1.5 practice. That sounds like a decent amount of effort to prepare. (Again, just playing with assumptions here.)
    3. Game analysis and reporting. 2 hours a week? I’ve NEVER seen any indication that coaches ever wanted to do this or produced anything written. Let’s say they grin-and-bear-it, take an English lesson or two, and spend 1 hour per week at it. Again, just playing here with assumptions. (And like Colin, making these notes public would sure be eye-opening.)

    Now we’re down to 11.5 hours per week. That now translates to $33/hr for the $1800 fee and $46/hr on the $2400 fee. These extrapolate (like that big word?) out to $56k and $77k (assuming 40 hours per week and 42 weeks per year). I’m thinking this is a pretty good gig now. No? Doing something you love doing, working with kids, outdoors, yada yada. Yeah, no one is going to get rich coaching HPL – I sure the hell hope not!! Remember these are kids and we’re abused parents just wanting the best value for our kids and our money.

    BTW, you can go to TSS’s Monthly program and get 6 hours a month for $120 – $20/hr; or Jason Jordan’s shiny new VFC Academy, 24-90 minute sessions for $480 or $13/hour. These are basically the same folks coaching at the HPL level, no?

    Boy, oh boy – if someone’s asking parents to pay this kind of dough, they’d better be prepared to be VERY accountable from Week 1.

    • Phil Hernandez says:

      “BTW, you can go to TSS’s Monthly program and get 6 hours a month for $120 – $20/hr; or Jason Jordan’s shiny new VFC Academy, 24-90 minute sessions for $480 or $13/hour.”

      Apart from the fact that doing these kind of comparisons may be misleading, you are comparing apples to oranges with this comment, which has to do with what consumers pay and not what coaches earn. If you wish to look at it that way then you have to calculate the per hour cost of participating in the BCPL. There are 29 weeks of league play and 5 weeks of pre-season. Counting on-field time only, (6 hours for league weeks, 4.5 for pre-season), the number is just under 200 hours per season. Divide that into the fees and players are paying $9 ($1800) or $12 (2400), etc. One can suppose that people may (or may not) see the value of engaging in an activity at that rate. Personally, I don’t find the rate ridiculous when compared to other “diversions” my daughter might otherwise be involved in. Otherwise, I doubt I’d be paying the $20 – $25/hr rate for TSS academy/team training.

      PH

    • Gregor says:

      The area that has the most potential (as a development tool and as something that sets BCPL coaching apart) is the use of video.

      When I have video of games we’ve played I’m amazed by two things: how much it varies from my own memory and how much more I see from getting a second angle to view it from (the first being, of course, my eyes).

      In terms of game analysis that helps inform coaching decisions it should be mandatory but I think you can take it two more steps. The second is to have coaches go over video with players to illustrate particular points either as a team or with individuals. The third is to video some training sessions so TD’s can assess training sessions and, more importantly, coaches can assess their own training sessions and how their players are responding to the training.

      • Gregor says:

        Hit send too quick…

        The downside of video is that it’s quite time consuming to shoot, edit, review and share with teammates and coaches. There has to be a willingness to commit to the time needed to make video a consistently worthwhile tool.

        You also have to remember that the figures you’re throwing around for what coaches make are quite low compared to what some coaches are able to make privately doing team sessions. Making up to $200/hour working with teams is not unrealistic in some parts of the Lower Mainland. Everybody deals with economic realities and while BCPL coaching gigs look like a dream job to some there is still lots of demand out there for proven coaches at the team level and many coaches need to go that route to be financially stable.

      • Larry says:

        The video provides huge insight into actions, inputs and outputs on the field, that we often miss due to our human emotional state while in the moment. As you mentioned, the cost element will be an issue.

  13. mj2 says:

    I think its very fair to ask for and be presented with a season plans. I do disagree that a decent session can be consistently planned in just 30 minutes. Some sessions when they are part of a theme yes. But getting the themes ect in place and how the season pieces itself together in a developmental sense takes longer. Then at times individualizing what you do with players based on performance in games and practices again takes time. Teachers do this all the time and before you tell me the obvious, these are not trained educators, they are the pinnacle of coaching in the lower mainland and have hopefully picked up this knowledge in the coaching certifications programs. Just as an aisde, you cannot improve performance either individual or team unless you know what needs improving, to do this you need accurate information, to do this you need to analyze performance in some way shape or form (and I am not talking about the “we just didn’t compete today” analysis).

  14. Larry says:

    PH, I’m not really that interesting in the number crunching. It’s just a talking point because there is often a general belief that HPL vs MSL is an apples to apples comparison. I’m more interested in the duties, efforts and time involvement that an HPL head coach should be performing at an HPL level of play ( proposed). As noted in a previous post, the level of planning, attention to detail or analysis, preparation and communications at the HPL level should be significantly more than what exists in the current system today. If it is not, then there is no point of having an HPL. Some HPL clubs will have to convince their customers why their program costs are significantly more than others.

    • Phil Hernandez says:

      I know your not. And there was no intent to attck your main point via the numbers, about which I think your original premise is closer to the truth than Hank’s modifications. Sorry to have distracted folks from your main point.

      PH

  15. Coachrich says:

    I don’t know much about Rep youth hockey but I was quite surprised by their reg fees being less than BCPL by a long shot

    N Van Minor http://www.teampages.com/ul/documents/0001/7484/2011-2012_RegistrationFees.pdf

    Vancouver Thunderbirds – http://www.vancouvertbirds.ca/Text/1233167266718-1415/pC/1198257542077-4849/

    • Phil Hernandez says:

      I think it depends on the team and level. I think BWC, which is a more elite level club as I understand it, is closer to $1100 which doesn’t include equipment or membership fees. Also, nice try-out fees! Yikes!

      But I wouldn’t dwell too much on hockey vs. soccer fees.

      PH

      • Gregor says:

        Yeah hockey’s a totally different kettle of fish. We’re talking an all in price for BCPL that includes professional coaching. Elite hockey uses those reg fees as a starting point and then add in extra ice time and pro coaching on top.

    • Coachrich says:

      It would be good to see some links to other numbers for hockey reg fee and etc

  16. Larry says:

    Gregor, Another thought on video. Watching high level games such as World Cup, EPL, La Liga, etc, and getting feedback or commentary from the coach concurrently can provide additional value in the learning process. Players have to see the best players performing, so that they can imitate those actions themselves, when they play. We are biologically programmed to imitate, so why not watch the best soccer possible.

    • Brendan Quarry says:

      In my opinion, little will change until the messages that are imparted in training (ie. keeping possession of the ball, going back when needed, etc. ) get followed through on game day. The kids aren’t stupid. They realize that their coaches say one thing in training and another thing on game day. Game day is about winning. It’s about avoiding all mistakes. It’s about risk aversion. Until that changes, all the instruction in the world, including video, will not alter what we see on the field.

      • Rich says:

        Agreed, Brendan.

        Interestingly, my U16 Metro boys only one game from our first seven. We continued with the ‘play out of the back ‘ policy when possible and only lost one out of last seven games. Time and Patience are the key and we could all do with a little more of it…

  17. Stuck in Bridge Traffic says:

    Surrey United has posted BCPL costs and training details plus a comment a Tier 2 Metro Selects – might be worth a separate thread?

    http://www.surreyunitedbcpl.com/about/overview/

    Cost and Fee Payment Schedule
    * $2150
    * Inclusive of Player kit allowance (approximately $250 cost value)
    * Payment Schedule
    1. $1150 April 1st 2011
    2. $500 August 1st 2011
    3. $500 October 1st 2011

    Training Curriculum
    * Train to play ratio of 3:1 as per LTPD Model
    * 2 nights per week with appointed BCPL coach
    * 1 night per week speed agility and fitness programs with dedicated qualified sport specific instructors
    * Pre-season camps in August 2011 & February 2012
    * Sport Psychology Seminars
    * Pre-Season Exhibition games in Washington

    .

  18. Colin Elmes says:

    Surrey U- pick players now , hold till Nov 2012. Developmental error.

    • Sir Alex says:

      Not to mention the heavy front end load on the fees. Are they paying their coaches entire salary up front? Or is the money going to the build an administration structure, overhead and on and on …all under the guise of professionalizing the sport.

    • X says:

      based on first hand knowledge AT the evaluations and knowing the selections made….a VERY frightening developmental error at that.

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