HPL: Surdel Peg data charts

I had an email last night from Jaswinder Parmar, a Surrey FC executive and the General Manager of the SurDel Peg HPL bid asking me to put up information from their application that shows they would be competitive with any other prospective franchise.

The Excel spreadsheet he sent me (you can download images from it below) has several charts that compare the number of Provincial team players, NTC players, “Combined Points at Nationals”, Whitecaps Programming players and National team players.

They’ve provided a comprehensive appendix backing the data with player names for the various teams and programs referenced by the charts but asked that I not publish that (which is totally understandable).

This is a highly relevant document given the points I’ve raised recently about what the selection process should be about. For me this is boiling down to a “geography” vs “ability” argument. There’s a stated desire to have the franchises spread geographically across the Lower Mainland to ease potential logistic concerns and ensure accessibility. Understandable but how far do you go down that path before you end up with franchises that do not have a reasonable chance of fielding competitive teams?

I’ve put my picks out there and understandably there’s people that don’t agree with them and people who are upset about them. But really, my opinion and others expressed here are not going to influence the final decision.

I think Surrey FC/SurDel Peg are in a tough place. There will not be three Surrey franchises granted and that’s primarily a function of the stated desire to spread the franchises geographically. Surrey United will get one. Period. That leaves a competition between SurDel Peg and South Fraser. South Fraser is seen as (a) occupying a distinct part of the Lower Mainland. SurDel Peg mitigated this a bit by bringing Delta entities to the bid but is it enough to overcome (b) the perceived stability of the South Fraser clubs, their facilities (Surrey FC is being dragged into a battle for use of Newton Athletic with Central City Breakers) and coaching staff.

I think it’s close between the two but also hindering SurDel Peg is Surrey FC’s significant drop in player numbers the last few years. My thinking is that this gives South Fraser the edge but it’s really the closest battle out there for a spot in HPL despite Golden Ears/Pitt Meadows attempts to dislodge Abby as the de facto Fraser Valley entity.

Beyond that there seems to be more player movement within the Surrey clubs than in other Districts so there’s often multiple claims as to who developed particular players.

But when you see the charts, and I think the appendices support their veracity, there’s a very convincing argument that SurDel Peg would be a very competitive entity if they kept their players.

I commented yesterday that there’s no point in all this disruptive, anger-inducing change if we’re not going to end up with what the desired outcome is: a much better elite league for youth players. We’ve got rid of some of the elements that bound the hands of progressive elements who want to help good players become better like conflicts with other levels of play (Provincial team programs, NTC training, Prospects), restrictions on player movement between clubs and age groups bloated with too many teams. But if the decision making tilts too far towards geographic considerations a lot of this good work will be undone and the league will be compromised.

My picks for HPL have been based on who I think will get franchises, not who the best candidates actually are. So while I have Vancouver Island and Okanagan as locks, that’s down to political concessions primarily. I have Abbotsford in but it’s a concession to geography and that club’s tremendous history in being a ground breaker on so many fronts.

I think these three will struggle to be competitive in most age groups. Even with Abby partnering with Langley, I don’t see them doing well on the girls side. Even with Lower Island working with Upper Island I don’t see a big enough base of strong players.

If I were picking franchises based solely on which groups can bring us to a true elite league that would provide challenging games for the players, week in, week out and assumedly (and it’s a big assumption for all the applicants) get top coaching for those teams, geography and political considerations be damned,  it would look like this (alphabetically within categories).

Certainties:

  • Coquitlam Metro-Ford
  • North Shore-Burnaby
  • Surrey United
  • Vancouver-Richmond

Strong Contenders:

  • South Fraser Soccer Club
  • Sportstown
  • SurDel Peg

Need to demonstrate they can compete:

  • Abbotsford
  • Golden Ears/Pitt Meadows
  • Okanagan
  • Vancouver Island

Unfortunately, I think my list of who I think will get franchises will be closer to the actual list than this.

Here is the info from SurDel Peg outlining, according to their numbers but substantiated by appendices, where the elite players in the Lower Mainland are currently playing at the club level. May want to click on them to make the axis labels more readable.

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62 Responses to HPL: Surdel Peg data charts

  1. Colin Elmes says:

    Decisions already been made. This is all in vain.

  2. FlyingHorse says:

    Colin … well the decisions surely haven’t been announced though. I do respect that STFC/TSS released their Application publicly … we have decided as a group at SurDel Pegasus FC to release key parts of our bid publicly as well. I guess you’ve started a trend!

    If this league is truly about “Elite Player Development” then the charts that Gregor has up paint a pretty solid picture. Pegasus was an early adopter of the LTPD and look at the dividends our Provincial, National and Whitecaps programs have now …

  3. Phil Hernandez says:

    One can hope, if not assume, that the Selection Panel, notwithstanding that they are likely to be more of a recommendation panel, while not immune to regional historical factors are less likely to be swayed by these factors by virtue of being from other parts of the world (I believe you yourself said so in a previous post). Consequently, your a) and b) factors above may have little or no bearing on their thought processes.

    As to the charts (I guess no data was available for 2008 PTP), without bringing into sharper focus factors such as number of registered players, gender breakdowns, and even economic factors, they show data but not information.

    PH

    • Canadian Spur says:

      I have always assumed that the Surdel/Peg bid was ahead of South Fraser and would be one of the 2 Surrey based bids (along with SU) that would be accepted and the charts do seem to bear this out. In my mind this is the only spot where I am not sure of the outcome.
      The other 7 spots, rightly or wrongly, almost pick themselves.
      • Island and Okanagan were pre-ordained,
      • CMF, SU, Abby ( I believe someone called these the ‘Super Clubs”) are virtual locks,
      • NS/Burnaby and Van/Richmond cover areas too big to be without representation.
      • GEU/Pitt gets squeezed out by CMF and Abby.
      • STFC unfortunately never had a chance (not saying I agree with this).
      Gregor, In your rankings I think you may be a little hard on the Island. While perhaps not quite a “strong contender”, I think that they are above Abby, Okanagan and GEU/Pitt in competitiveness. Certainly not top of the table in the group of 11 applicants, but not really relegation threatened either.

  4. Colin Elmes says:

    Needed to get it up earlier. Why did you wait?

  5. FlyingHorse says:

    Phil – Gregor has the source data … quote
    “They’ve provided a comprehensive appendix backing the data with player names for the various teams and programs referenced by the charts but asked that I not publish that (which is totally understandable).”

    • Phil Hernandez says:

      Yes I saw that Horse but the disclaimer talks about naming specific players, which would not change the nature of the data you present in any way, so not publishing it is fine. I am talking about providing a context for your data. E.g. the chart says that SurDelPeg has 9 players in Whitecaps programming which is as many as BNS and VR. If you also tell me that the SDP player population base is 1000, BNS is 3500, and VR is 4500 (I’m making these up), then the data becomes much more meaningful. That sort of thing. Anyway, no worries.

      • thiku says:

        Well stated, Phil.

      • FlyingHorse says:

        Phil – yes you make a good point and request for that specific context is a good idea. I don’t know how detailed other clubs are with keeping data or researching data like this.

        Admittedly, our group doesn’t have access to registration data of the other 10 franchise applicants over the past 5 years.

        What we do have access to are (most of) the results of Player Development programs, irrespective of registrations. This constitutes the data behind the graphs. We did our best to be objective about it – notice how strong the “Mountain” looks for example.

        Note that some of the data was hard to get out of BC Soccer (2008 PTP, for example).

        If nothing else, these graphs do paint a picture of context (as you’re asking for it) in that the franchises are compared, apples to apples, on the “Elite Player Development” results over the past 5 years. On this merit alone, I think we should be a lock. Of course there are other factors …

        We’ve been following the LTPD since its inception, and it’s been good for our players!

  6. southofthefraser says:

    Does SurDel Peg’s numbers for other entities include their regional partners’ PTP and NTC players etc.? Convenient if Surrey United doesn’t include LUYSA and GAC numbers or CMF doesn’t include Port Moody and Port Coquitlam numbers. Albeit they are not likely comparing themselves to those applications but it still skews the charts significantly.

    • southofthefraser says:

      Futhermore… what constitutes “Whitecaps Professional Development Programming” Is this just residency? What criteria did they have to meet to qualify as a SurDel Peg player (did they simply have to play one year at either club somewhere along the line)?

      I can assure you CMF and Surrey United (only clubs I can speak with some level of certainty) have far more than 2 players in Whitecaps Professional Development Programming.

      • XYZ says:

        CMF: Katherine Caverly, Daniel Stanese
        SU: Coulton Jackson, Spencer De Boise

      • Canadian Spur says:

        Very True. If they took the Whitecaps residency data from the ‘Caps website a lot of players previous club is listed as Whitecaps Prospects and ignores the original development club

      • southofthefraser says:

        Evan Lowther??? SU if I’m not mistaken. Played on SP’s team.

    • XYZ says:

      Yes regional partners are included. Surrey United includes LUYSA and GAC. South Fraser includes TSA as well.

      • southofthefraser says:

        Then I would suggest the numbers are baloney. Although I do understand why they can’t release their appendices, their statistics are half-baked. Looking at residency alone I see two SU players and another in the residency Alumni, that already takes us to 3 players.

        If these numbers include Prospects, then CMF, and every other club for that matter, have been shamelessly misrepresented in these graphs.

        On a side note, I see another residency player that has played for both SU and Surdel Peg (Surrey Youth at the time). I wonder how he was counted?

      • FlyingHorse says:

        southofthefraser

        These numbers were compiled from CSA/BC Soccer/Whitecaps data. Why don’t you post the South Fraser research then?

      • southofthefraser says:

        Just to be clear… I am in no way involved with the South Fraser group. I chose the handle more to reflect a ‘Surrey’ perspective.

  7. BD says:

    After following all of this HPL discussions on your blog, I am starting to believe that you have a thing for Geography and therefore borders 🙂

    I hope those in charge of making decisions do not follow model of geographic spread so strictly as it will surely beat the primary purpose of creating this top level competing ground.

    But, let me channel this clearly to you and those in charge (as it seems getting lost): We, the parents of high level prospective players want higher, waaaaay higher level of development ((a) coaching, (b) competing and (c) organizational). That’s why we embraced HPL wholeheartedly. It is a way in right direction. It shows promise and is giving us hope.

    And as stated before, we don’t really care if two top level franchises exist just blocks away if they are proven to consistently nurture top level soccer. For Surrey to get 3 (or 13!) franchises would be only speaking about them doing something right. And for us to drive our children even further away, it’s something that parents of all top players can put up with if they know they’ll be getting those (a), (b) and (c). IE (I wish:)), if SurDelPeg engage some fancy European youth coach, I’d be first in line even though it would add 6 hours per week of extra drive. It’s not that I am overly ambitious, actually it’s quite pragmatic: spending 30% more time for significantly better overall product would be easily justifiable.

    Those are real issue we want addressed, that’s what is important to players and us, their parents. And that would be a real game changer (along with organizational change), not whether this street belongs to this club’s zone or who is ‘covering’ Port Moody.

    • Canadian Spur says:

      BD,

      We all want the a) b) c). With the restriction on number of teams we will get better competion (your b) but there still will be weaker teams so we may not get the best competition. Time will tell on the organizational side (your c). I’m not sure about coaching (your a). I don’t see many new and wonderful coaches appearing on the BC soccer landscape. This in not a knock on the coaches that we have now but in the end it will still be the same coaches running the programs as before. Yes NSB may hire Even Pellarud and CMF may have Dale Mitchell but how many new coaches will the HPL really attract? The training environment will likley improve with a better training to game ratio and (hopefully) better structured programs but they will likley be delivered by the same coaches. Will Academy coaches from the like of TSS , Roman Tulis et al. join the HPL coaching ranks? I suspect not. (comment Colin?)

      BCSA will use geography as part of their criteria as they will want to be seen as providing accessable programs for as much of the province as possible but by removing the district boundaries for HPL, parents are free to choose the best program so the geography issue while important to BSC for appearance sake becomes a non-issue for parents of elite players willing to take the time to give thier children what they believe is the best development experience. If a weaker program is accepted by the committee, presumably discerning partens will not choose this option.

      • Larry says:

        Regardless of which clubs get a HPL franchise the likes of TSS , Roman Tulis et al, will still play a huge role as many future HPL’ers will be moving through these academy systems between the ages of U8 and U12.

  8. Gregor says:

    As I said and I think we’re all aware of this, there are often competing claims to players. For example, Colin claims several players who attended a TSS summer camp at U9, who are now NTC calibre at U14, as Sportstown FC HPL candidates 😉

    Surrey, more than any other jurisdiction I know, seems to have this sort of overlap as players move between clubs there more than the average. Does it mean SurDel Peg’s data is useless. No. But the picture the charts paint maybe isn’t quite as absolute as they’d like it to be. Even if you take 25% of the top of their tallies, they still look pretty solid in terms of the numbers they’re putting onto those levels of play.

    • BD says:

      And why Colin wouldn’t claim credit on those players? Even a summer camp at private academy meant usually more to player development than year of community soccer. Anyone involved in one ca support this claim.

      My son was playing for two agonizing years (U7~U8 PTG) before he got a teammate who was able to pass back the ball! For two years and just to pass the ball back!

      If I didn’t immediately turned to one of those two private development academies (Roman Tulis in our case), my son would have been lost for this game. It’s a simple fact.

      Those guys at TSS and Tulis deserve huge credit for further development of top talent. And their fingerprints are all over this U14 team in question. Another simple fact 🙂

  9. stats pack says:

    This data is VERY interesting.

    While it is absolutely certain that there can be different interpretations I think it still paints a picture.

    There have been references to current vs. alumni, players moving clubs, etc. Guess what, this is part of the local soccer scene and we might as well embrace it. You will NEVER be able to quantify those players who move around the circuit of clubs – and don’t think for a second that all clubs aren’t recruiting from one another.

    I would love to hear what the Surdel Pegasus club used to access information. If it was information from rosters from BC Soccer and Whitecaps this should be pretty easy to confirm or not. I hope that it is current and fact based as opposed to “this guy played for us once, so he counts”.

    I look forward to more information about this.

    I will say that history is important as it shows a demonstrated success at some level. Groups without this are too speculative in my opinion. By giving the Island and OK automatic spots, the lower mainland can’t afford to be specualted. It needs the best six clubs.

    I struggle to see how South Fraser and Surdel Pegasus are even being considered as equal if these stats are accurate? That is of course unless there are politics in play.

    • XYZ says:

      All information was taken from BC soccer,Whitecaps, and CSA websites. It took a while to search through data, most of which had been archived, to compile these lists. IE if a provincial team player in 2006 was selected from Surrey United he would have been put under surrey united. If in 2007 that same player was listed as CMF player he would have counted as CMF in 2007.

  10. Colin Elmes says:

    Cdn Spur. No plans for my staff to work with other HPL entities.

    Gregor- U9 – I go back to U5 for these claims! To be really honest I use players who just even thought about coming to our program as potential Sportstown HPL candidates.
    Because no one owns any of the players because no one owns this game.

    Really, most of the kids who have advanced and are part of these bar graphs, aside from their hard work, talent and passion creating these opportunities, many have had INDIVIDUAL, sophisticated coaches and a similar audience on their teams (which usually transfers into team success and observation by coaches assigned to the next level of play) as the main reasons why they have achieved what they have.

    The belief that anymore than a handful of these HPL Entities actual have a “Plan” that has been instituted and followed to make the CLUB a true player development destination is just smoke and mirrors.

    • Coach rich says:

      I agree with you Colin.

      I’m not sure how a new league with the same people as the old league is going to be any different than the past smoke and mirrors. All of the people involved have had lots of time to make a plan and changes in player development in their club or districts. I know everyone tries but the constant problem is trying to create a development plan and get everyone to work together on.

  11. D says:

    I commented before and I will again about the quality and availability of coaches who should be working in this league. Some people have used the term “teachers” in relation to describing the type of person they want working with these players. Great, but there is such a huge difference between a teacher and a coach. Most coaches know the game. They generally have no training and know very little about feedback, assessment methodologies, setting goals, individualizing or differentiating what they do with players and on and on. Certification such as a B licence probably produces coaches that are generally good organizers, run decent practices that keep kids busy etc, with set plays that have a chance to work. If you want coaches that understand how players learn, can motivate without punishment, have a keen eye for developing technique, can give kids the confidence to apply this technique in their game performances, can provide timely and accurate feedback, work with those “teachable moments”, know how to and have the capacity to see the “bigger picture” of what they are doing, then I think then answer is a complete and overwhelming no, there are nowhere near enough quality coaches available.

    So what BC soccer should do is set themselves up as the quality service provider when it comes to coach development. Part of this league should be mandatory and ongoing professional development for coaches. Set up sessions where coaches, instead of competing with one another, share ideas, thoughts, knowledge about what is taking place, not just within clubs but across clubs. BC soccer coaches should be leading us in this. They should be helping to set the bar for the expectations people can have of these coaches. If a coach is not prepared to do this and try to learn more about the game then they are actually not right for working in this league. There should also be a new and evolving coach curriculum. If you want teachers of the game then you will have to provide help to these coaches who want to become teachers otherwise the old habits of competition will take center stage and you will have coaches.

    • Bartlett says:

      A coaches-only discussion forum/board would be a good thing to be provided by the HPL. No doubt knowledge needs to be shared, not hoarded.

      • Gregor says:

        D, who I know well, and Bartlett are now touching on something that really hasn’t been given the attention it needs: coaching development.

        I watch a lot of youth soccer games. There are tons of well-intentioned parents out there who facilitate kids being able to play by offering to be coaches. Without them, a very large segment of players simply don’t get to play because of the scarcity of coaches. The expectations of parent volunteer coaches is of course a lot lower than what we would expect of those running Provincial, Y League, Prospects, Metro and, soon, HPL teams.

        As many have said, including me, if HPL is going to be a pro coach environment with 80 coaches needed and then many are going to continue to expect pro coaches at the second tier below that, we have a serious problem. The coaches of this quality are simply not there in the quantity needed.

        We spend so much time bemoaning the lack and means of player development but there’s been way less attention paid to coach development over the years and we’re now paying the price as parent expectations, and wallets, now expect much better coaching for their kids.

        Over the years, I’ve sent emails to both CSA and BCSA suggesting they augment their coaching development. After I did my B National I told Ray Clarke that the course they were missing was one that trained prospective Technical Directors. I realized that was necessary when so many coaches from other provinces kept asking me about how to become a TD.

        I also emailed Mike Findlay at BCSA and suggested when they had a staff coach quit awhile ago that they create a new position and that person work directly with clubs, mainly through TD’s to deliver a standardized curriculum and support coach development through the TD’s.

        While I’m not saying I expected them to adopt my suggestions verbatim it would have been nice to get a reply acknowledging receipt.

        The current CCC/CCY/CCS/B Prep/B Prov/B National/A License courses are not nearly enough. The suggestions for co-operative coaching initiatives are great. The use of video for coach development is way overdue as well.

        Just as we’re overhauling the league environment for our top players, the way we develop high level coaches is also screaming out for change.

  12. GDad says:

    BD, here-here on the TSS contribution. They were and are the difference for many kids in the lower mainland. This was our first exposure to some sort of relatively tangible “Program”, movement between levels of ability every Sunday, skills at different levels. Yes, it felt together, challenging, competitive, energizing. Having been involved in many organizations over the years, I’ve never ever felt a part of a Program where coaches share philosophies, drills with each other. Every coach was an island to himself – of course, several were fantastic and some were controversial. But never anything that even remotely smelled like a “Program” except for what was offered at TSS. So @Colin, I can certainly vouch for TSS’s Program. I am making this judgement based on what TSS was like 4 years ago – after that the Selects Coaching fees (not their program) ate up our soccer budget.

    So, as one writer earlier stated, don’t buy blindly into those offering a Program because my sense (and experience) says that most don’t have one. Many have great coaches but, a Program, I don’t think so. The ones that do, should be damn proud of themselves; the ones the say they do, but don’t – well, it’s never too late to stop your “posing”.

  13. Colin Elmes says:

    D has it spot on. And as I have said many times way are a very long way off. The type of leadership required here does not currently exist at the top of our food chain. Just listen to all this “competition” amongst the posters here and on other sites for spots in this league. That unfortunately directly transfers to the organisations and many of the coaches who will be running these teams. We need to somehow find a way of pulling all of the technical people in and getting them to buy into this type of collective approach to this or we will not learn how to manage this new environment correctly and it will ultimately not end up producing players for the next level of the game. There is a window of time here where the walls between these Clubs have a chance to come down. Once it gets going without a strong intervention on the part of soccer leaders in this Province the opportunity will be lost. I am not convinced we have the right people currently on the bus to pull all this together.

  14. MJ says:

    Good point Colin, this discussion and some of the others are getting perilously close to which area has the best players, or who can recruit them (for the purposes of winning, I presume!). I guess part of the challenge is ensuring the adults involved (parents/coaches/trainers) feel sufficiently secure in what they are doing to look beyond the weekend scores. Not an easy thing at this level at times.

    Apparently in Ontario the elite league has promotion/relegation and it sounds like it’s recruitment is key. Check out offthepitch.ca during their season, it’s a little creepy reading about U13 girls matches as if it’s the EPL.

  15. D says:

    I am also going to refer back to a previous post I sent in which I suggested that at the root of what all these new HPL organizations must do is to take seriously their responsibility for the development of the game in this province. Unfortunately with all this schoolyard back and forth about my bid being bigger and better than your bid, and my club has more provincial players that your bid, this responsibility is (in my opinion) getting overlooked. Also, again unfortunately, we will not see which bids really have been able to see the bigger picture and grasp this opportunity to positively impact the culture of the game in this province. What we seem to have is a bunch of people trying to make their club better than any other club. Yes this will take us forward to a degree, but only because it has helped to weed out clubs that really cannot develop elite level players and it has streamed the talent into a smaller number of places. The ones that are left, that is those that get HPL teams, are going to get so driven by results, because they will be driven by parents paying top dollar for their kids who see success by results. What gets lost is the responsibility to lead to a new way in this province about how players are trained or coached to play.

    So what would be good to hear from Surrey Peg (using them as an example as they submitted something for us to look at) is not there bid is best because they have lots of kids on provincial teams, but there bid is best because they will…..
    – encourage players to take risks when they play
    – think outside the box in working with other HPL partners to developing coaches
    – use video technology to work with players and coaches to enhance their development
    – use on-line and social media tools to assist players and coaches develop their skills (remember, kids learn very differently today that they did fifteen years ago).
    – mentor younger (particularly female) coaches to work within their teams & programs

    This is a chance to do something different. Something cutting edge. Please not same old same old except with brighter kit and more stackable cones!!

    • XYZ says:

      Surrey FC has actually been mentoring young coaches for year. Myself being a product of this. I and many others have always been provided opportunities to work in academies, be assistant coaches for Y league and metro teams to further our coaching development. Believe it or not there has been a lot of interest from players in the U-16 to U18 age group which are interested in coaching. We have used these players(all from our club) to help run our U6-U8 micro development program. This season we have also been developing coaches that play on our mens teams as well. Many of these players are ex national, University, and college levels players who all want to go into coaching. This has also had a positive effect on the kids as well. You wouldn’t believe how many players from our academy follow our Mens premier team closely and even come out to our games.

    • Larry says:

      HPL is a chance to change things, and break the mould.

      Otherwise we end up with an outcome described by Marshall McLuhan’s famous quote.

      “We drive into the future using only our rearview mirror.”

  16. Colin Elmes says:

    I will say it again. There is no PLAN on the horizon. And the ones in charge of the planning have neither the will, leadership skills nor the soccer compass to guide the overall environment to the right place when it comes to true player development. HPL or no HPL

  17. Colin Elmes says:

    And to use a quote from Soccernomics- “we are driving without a dashboard”

  18. K says:

    You sound a little more cynical this morning than most other days, CE?

  19. Colin Elmes says:

    Because we are about to miss a great opportunity for an intervention that will send this new league off in the right direction.

    • RR says:

      Colin: On the topic of sending the league off in the right direction, and in view of the fact that you’ve been exemplary in terms of providing transparency vis-a-vis STFC’s HPL submission, can you tell us if you explored the notion of a joint submission before deciding to go it alone? I find myself wondering if doing so would have helped your chances of success. Or would doing that have so negatively impacted TSS’s ability to deliver quality that it wasn’t worth it?
      Our child has been training at TSS for the past couple years, and we’ve been very thankful that such valuable opportunities exist.

    • Phil Hernandez says:

      OK. Let’s just say you’re right and that “the…people currently on the bus…” are the wrong ones and “have neither the will, leadership skills nor the soccer compass to guide the overall environment to the right place…” . You make an oblique reference to the right ones, in your inimitable mallet-like style, here: “Once it gets going without a strong intervention on the part of soccer leaders in this Province the opportunity will be lost.”

      So are you saying that the people we need are present but uninterested or simply not present?

  20. MJ says:

    Here’s a Friday afternoon bit of madness-

    What if the HPL had a strong central HQ, and prescribed technical direction etc. to the teams, along with trainers (and coaches?), technical support, education etc to each franchise. In fact, it could go as far as allocating players to achieve balance while being carbon neutral. If all teams has access to similar levels of support, coaching etc. the development (and wins) would be more or less equal without all the franchise rivalries, worrying about boundaries, commuting across town etc.

    • southofthefraser says:

      Lovely thought but a bit utopian; more holes than a sieve in that idea.

      I have a great name though, call it the CSL…. Communist Soccer League ; )

  21. Joe says:

    Great comments D .
    As I stated before awarding one club over another one is a stupid idea .
    it will only spit the soccer community. We went down this exact road with Y league . We need to establish academies throughout the province that are independent of any one soccer club , but yet works in partnership in player and coaching development.

  22. Joe says:

    I think MJ and Colin comments are right on the mark.

    We need to do HPL right .or not at all . The only stat we should be looking at is where we were and where were heading.
    In the 70’s and 80’s BC lead North America in soccer, there were more professional players coming from BC than any place else in North America. And we were 1/3 the size we are now. Canada’s national team was made up of mostly BC players, and BC players could be found on almost any NASL teams rooster in Canada or the US .

    40 years later we went from Best to Worst . Ontario , Quebec and Alberta
    have more national players than BC. The latest Men U20 squad had not one player from the lower mainland .

    BC soccer has shown no leadership and have no plan !

    Clubs need to be doing much better at early soccer development U7-U12 .
    But they will need the help of a HPL franchise to work with them in developing players to that next level . This HPL franchise cannot be affiliated with any club.
    It can’t both support and compete with these clubs .. It must an organization that is works on a completely different platform, and it must be accountable to these clubs by offer both support and development to players and coaches .

    • K says:

      Maybe it is that back in 70’s and 80’s folks just weren’t scouting Ontario, Quebec, and Alberta? Also, BC has not become “the worst.” Look at the recent SYL finalists as one example. However, is BC where it should be? Certainly no. That can be said for all of Canada though.

  23. K says:

    SYL clubs weren’t awarded through an application process such as HPL, Joe. To the best of my knowledge. They would have all applied individually to USL and of course BCSA sanctioning, would they not? I don’t think you can compare SYL and HPL in this regard anyway.

    Joe, you might want to elaborate on this utopia you’ve described of having these academies around the province. Prince George, for example, has all sorts of soccer programming. How would your idea be different from what they are already doing?

  24. Colin Elmes says:

    K. Not scouting Ontario etc. Thats silly. Here is the reason. lots of immigration from soccer mad nations(my parents came here from UK in 1960). Many of these people were “players” they had kids, these kids were soccer mad from their parents- strong culture etc, this has changed drastically. immigration now not generally from soccer mad nations etc. There is a reason why our over 40 and 50 leagues are well populated. it is these people. I think these leagues will fade off in coming years.
    SYL standard is not a very good barometer. Standard there has dropped off yearly since USSF Academy on boys side and ECNL on girls side. A lot of it is junk now.

    Prince George- where did that one come from?

    BC Players rep on National Teams at all time low- if not for female rep it would be pathetic- around 5% on boys side since Jan 2010. massive failure with the resources and player numbers we have. BC has 14% of all players in Canada. Both Ontario and Quebec national Team rep higher than their demographics( I wrote an editorial on this about 6 weeks ago “Where have all the BC Players Gone”)

    HPL will help with this IF we can change how we approach the development side said above by “D”

  25. K says:

    Colin, sorry, not following your post I think…? So did BC dominate the national team in 70’s and 80’s because all the immigrants moved to BC or because BC had the best soccer development programs? It seems one poster was suggesting our development back then was outstanding and now it’s in the can. You seem to now be suggesting it actually has to do with nothing but thanks to immigrants. I’d love to look at some immigration numbers from the 60’s compared to now. Guess I could hit-up Google.

    Erm Colin – I, nor anyone else commented on the standard of play in SYL. It was Joe who wrote: “As I stated before awarding one club over another one is a stupid idea .
    it will only spit the soccer community. We went down this exact road with Y league . We need to establish academies throughout the province that are independent of any one soccer club , but yet works in partnership in player and coaching development.”

    What I was seeking clarification on was how can the current HPL franchise selection process be at all compared to how clubs were added to SYL. Apples and oranges is it not? I am willing to stand corrected of course. Basically, why is Joe equating the previous addition of SYL clubs to the current creation of HPL and some new franchises? I realize Coastal, Mountain etc are new franchises, but I don’t recall a bidding process involved.

    Prince George? It was a random city that popped to mind as an example. It was suggested by Joe that province-wide academies be set-up. I look at a place such as Prince George as a case-study and wonder “how can an academy be set-up separately there?” “Where will the coaches come from? Training facility? Money?” I am all for academy training, don’t get me wrong. TSS provides excellent training and I am sure others would as well. Basically, Joe’s idea isn’t reasonable, as far as I can tell. But, if he can elaborate it’d be an interesting read.

    I know BC rep on national teams is at an all-time low. I am failing to see where I didn’t say that?

    Are you a wee-bit sleepy tonight, big guy?

    Anyway, nice to chat about something other than HPL for a while! 🙂 I hope the above is all taken in good spirits, fella’s. I am not claiming absolute knowledge in any of the above and am open to correction/opinion.

    • Joe says:

      K
      I suggest you do look it up , Colin is correct, in 60’s there was a large increase in immigration in the Vancouver area from country’s like England, Scotland Ireland Portugal and Italy . And in this group of immigrants where people who had professional soccer careers in Europe. I personal had three youth coaches who played professional in Europe and none of them had a child on the team . In fact I think a good number of the elite team would of had the same level of coaching .
      And yes…. K I know we like in a different time and we don’t have that level of coach today .

  26. Joe says:

    K . This is not about a bidding process . It about having support from the other clubs.
    SU didn’t support SY when they were running the Y league. Do you really think
    that if one of these clubs didn’t get an HPL franchise the other either one would support it.?
    Rewarding any club with a HPL franchise is not going to correct anything. We will just continue doing what we been doing.

    Further more your kidding yourself if you think there is a application process for HPL now . Look at the people backing the HPL on the BC soccer web site. Do you think any of these clubs would be backing HPL if they weren’t already told they were getting a HPL team ?

  27. Joe says:

    By the way Prince George would be an excellent place for an academy.
    Prince George is an excellent soccer town . The level of soccer in PG is excellent Considering the size of PG .

    • southofthefraser says:

      When you say, “the level of soccer in PG is excellent”, do you mean the ‘buy in’ is good or the talent? I have yet to see PG teams at the youth level compete compete consistently at a gold standard, even that is a stretch. They simply do not have the infrastructure in terms of a competitive league. Their facilities are excellent but even with excellent coaching the logistics are a nightmare to develop high level players.

  28. Joe says:

    Both, The programs they have in place and the talent., And yes your right the talent is at gold level , but so is Abbortsford , Kamloops , Kelowna and Upper island .
    What you need consider is that PG does have assess to the competition we have in the lower mainland

  29. Joe says:

    I’m not suggesting that PG participate in HPL that would be nut’s. PG has some major obstacles with there location and there size , but I think they have the right approach
    It will be about 5- 10 year before theythe results.

    I think these out lining regions need there own programs in place and that includes Kamloops, Kelowna or even the Island for that matter .
    The island which has almost a million people needs to have a program of there own Having only one HPL team at each level for a million people will do nothing for player development .

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